Shit. Warren, I’m sorry about that.

Edgar,

Thanks for the kind words. We take our films and conversations seriously at Scene Stealers. We try keep it civil and interesting. Glad you appreciated it.

this has to be one of the best most professional debates i have ever read. no low blows or rude comments were intentionally made to try to belittle the other person. well done guys. i was just as caught up in your debates as much as i was caught up by the avengers (assemble). well done sirs.

And Kyle I do want to thank you for your thoughtful comments. I love these types of debates.

As both a lover of cinema and a critic, I always try to make a distinction between personal preference and how a film succeeds or fails.

‘The Avengers’ is difficult because I really do believe it could be a lot better than it was, but people are out there are loving it, so it obviously is speaking to a large population. I did try to manage my comments in my review, and am really thankful for this continued conversation.

Please keep the comments coming on either this or future reviews.

Kyle,

I didn’t feel like you were coming off as aggressive.

A couple of films from last year that broke the formula or used it in a new and interesting way were ‘Drive’ or ‘Tree of Life.’ Whether you love or hate either of these films is no big deal, I’ll simply describe how they used narrative in an interesting way.

‘Tree of Life’ is a loose meandering narrative over impressive visuals that allows a viewer to wander mentally. Some viewers loved this cinematic contemplation, some hated it, but it broke almost every filmic formula. Even films like ‘2001’ which comes to mind when thinking of ‘Tree of Life’ is unlike it in a number of significant ways.

‘Drive’ is a job gone wrong film and is as formula as it gets, but as with well made formal poetry it’s in the content and phrasing. Refn crafted a super stylistic film and characters that both followed the formula and behaved in an exciting and unexpected manner. The more I watch the film, the more I see the formula underneath and the more amazed I am at how beautifully Refn used it to create an amazing film.

Whedon was constrained by Marvel and the fans, so couldn’t make anything other than a film that got us to that big battle scene in exactly the way we got there. It didn’t complicate any of the characters further. If anything most of the characters felt like digressions. The only exception would be Bruce Banner.

Not everything has to be an art film, and some films should be fun. The Avengers cost a huge amount of money and will make a huge amount of money. Isn’t it right for us to expect it to be the best?

My apologies for angering you. I did not take the time to read up on your reviews of past movies before I commented, and for that I also appologize. I was simply using two very well known movies to try and make my point. This is really something I was curious about and not just a way to attack you, as I said I really don’t care if you don’t like big action movies, but I just don’t understand how/why the formula thing is the reason.

I agree there is a big difference between knowing what will happen and knowing how it gets there, I just feel like the formula issue speaks to both. And again I feel like it applies to just about every narritive film. Something like tree of life would be an obvious example of non formula, but if that’s the only type of movie that’s okay it seems like a pretty limited amount of films to be okay with.

I don’t know if this is coming off as aggressive as my last comment must have, hopefully not, but I’d be interested in which big films you think didn’t have this kind of issue. I’d like to stress once again that I’m genuinely interested in your thoughts and not just trying to be an ass, that’s a waste of time for both of us.

Kyle,

If you want to read my review of Star Wars you’re more than welcome to. Knowing the outcome is different than knowing exactly how we’re going to get there, and with Avengers everything was laid out in all its boring glory.

To be clear I also had significant difficulties with TDK as well, though they were different issues.

Big action films can also be smart and subversive. This one was yawnsville at best. It’s a copy of a copy.

“pulling the ‘formula’ card I feel is kind of weak”

Well how do you feel about building a straw man out of references I didn’t make?

If you want a review that praises the brilliance of Whedon’s opus, then there are plenty out there. I’ve made my arguments and you didn’t agree. Why don’t you go and throw a few more bucks down that 200 million dollar money pit.

Furthermore I find it hard to understand how the arguemnt could be made against lack of character depth or not enough time to flesh out their feelings. One of the basic aspects of this film is that there were already others that established these characters (some to a greater extent than others of course). If you were to only watch Return of the King or Jedi, you’d probably have a hard time understanding every character’s motivation and inner workings. The other films aren’t absolutely essential to enjoy the Avengers, but they are essential to fully understand the Avengers.

I’ve never understood why films can’t just be designed to be fun, and even if you are able to predict pretty much everything that happens that doesn’t mean its bad. Did you really think the Joker was going to win in the Dark Knight? Did you think Gordon actually died? My guess is no, and I’m also guessing you didn’t have issues with TDK like you do Avengers. I understand that Michael Bay movies have almost ruined summer blockbusters at this point, both the film school grad and normal dude in me are completely done with the Transformers movies and will not be seeing Transformers 4 errr Battleship, but I don’t feel as if this can really be compared with Michael Bay movies just because there is a big fight at the end where bulidings get smashed. If you don’t like big action movies thats fine, and I wouldn’t have a problem with that being the reason you don’t like it, but pulling the ‘formula’ card I feel is kind of weak because, really, how many movies don’t adhere to the formula of their genre?

Totally agree. This is exactly why Aronofsky withdrew as the possible director of a Wolverine film. It was due to family concerns, which is a cover often times for creative differences.

I guess in my jaded mind the saddest thing, is that an iteration of an iteration of a facsimile IS the most definitive way to make a profit on the public.

What was that monologue Loki gave outside the opera house again?

Michael,

I really almost mentioned pink slime in my review. Thanks for the kind words, but I think we’re gonna be in the limited minority.

As roughed up as I felt by this one, if you have any desire to see it, you should see it on the big screen, and not in 3D. You may like it more than I did, but it did feel a lot like Dark of the Moon.

Adam,

I think if you were to make it different you would alienate the enormous crowd of folks who want only what they expect.

It would have been risky and divisive, but may have made a better film.

If you need a cinematic roller coaster, this will do, but I really was bored and disappointed that this movie didn’t bring anything new to the table as far the story and characters were concerned.

All that to say…(and this is coming from an art school graduate who took a bunch of film classes in college and is very interested in film as art) I guess I just don’t understand how with these characters and with this type of a movie it could have been better or different? I mean thats kind of the point of a hero right? To rise up when he’s needed even when he doesn’t want to? Thats kind of where the interesting nugget lies in the heroes journey. Like the movie says…sometimes old fashioned is how its gotta be.